Womens' MMA mega-thread

[Ronald_Frump]

I do too. But look at the way McMann powered out of Baszler's sub-attempt. If anything Ronda is more explosive and certainly has more body-awareness when it comes to ground-work.

Who can test her?

[crushed4life]

sorry, this is the best copy I found...

[Ronald_Frump]

She believes in sex before a fight......that's all I need to know.....

[sammy_scuffles]

His only advantage, most likely, would be speed. But IMO it wouldn't be significant enough and ultimately Sara's size and strength advantage would be insurmountable. She would simply bully him against the cage, before dragging (or even slamming) him to the floor where she'd proceed to pound him into submission, or unconsciousness.

We're talking about the same Sara McMann who's finished exactly one of her six pro opponents by TKO so far right? 
Despite his mediocre record Osawa has only been finished 3 times and he's definitely fought guys who hit a lot harder than McMann.

It's unlikely that she would actually be significantly more powerful than Osawa even if she does cut more weight. Where she likely would have a significant advantage would be wrestling technique. She could potentially take him down and grind out a decision - A Japanese fighter is likely to have a poorer wrestling base than most American fighters. I haven't actually seen any of his fights, so I can't really offer an opinion on what his game on the ground is like. He's got stacks of wins by decision so I doubt he's particularly dangerous.

[sheehan333]

We're talking about the same Sara McMann who's finished exactly one of her six pro opponents by TKO so far right? 
Despite his mediocre record Osawa has only been finished 3 times and he's definitely fought guys who hit a lot harder than McMann.

It's unlikely that she would actually be significantly more powerful than Osawa even if she does cut more weight. Where she likely would have a significant advantage would be wrestling technique. She could potentially take him down and grind out a decision - A Japanese fighter is likely to have a poorer wrestling base than most American fighters. I haven't actually seen any of his fights, so I can't really offer an opinion on what his game on the ground is like. He's got stacks of wins by decision so I doubt he's particularly dangerous.

I concur with Sammy here. Sara Mcmann never looked outstanding in any of her fights. Infact I thought she lost her last fight against shayna Baszler until I saw the ref raising her hands (a daylight robbery).

If it would have been a wrestling match I would have bet on Sara but in a MMA bout you have to give it to the man simply because of more striking power (one punch knockout). I have also not seen Osawa in action but he will easily have more experience then Sara in MMA and without a killer move like one Ronda has Sara will be a sitting duck for him.

Though in a fight between Osawa and Ronda I think she may be able to win, but to surely judge I need to see Osawa in action.

One reason female olympians has been successful in MMA is the lack of depth in the women's field. But among these women Ronda is head and shoulders above others (she good enough to hold exhibition matches against lower weight male fighters, as a procard wont be allowed). As for Sara Vs Ronda, it will only go to 2nd round if Ronda has been paid a lot to do so (until offcourse Mcmann drastically improve her game). Currently The only women capable of taking on Ronda is Cyborg (offcourse with weightclasses and and promotions permitting). One more girl I will keep an eye on is Randi Miller. She looks like a powerhouse and if she can develop her game she can take anyone out.

[sammy_scuffles]

I concur with Sammy here. Sara Mcmann never looked outstanding in any of her fights. Infact I thought she lost her last fight against shayna Baszler until I saw the ref raising her hands (a daylight robbery).

Robbery is a bit harsh. I thought Baszler probably did enough too, but it was a really close fight. I don't really have a problem with it getting scored either way.

I want to see Ronda have to face adversity and see how she deals with it.

I want to see someone pull guard and see how Ronda handles being neutralised in such a situation, or if she can't score a take-down and is forced to fight on her feet.

I don't think you're going to see her fight anyone that pulls guard for a while. There simply isn't any real submission aces in WMMA at the moment that would be inclined to do so. In a few years maybe. I also don't think there's anyone that will be able to reliably stuff her takedown game. That's the only reason that McMann looks like a compelling fight for Ronda - to see if she can keep the fight standing. I still say it's at least 2 fights too soon for that though.

I also think that Ronda "facing adversity" isn't exactly the right term. She's mentally tough, else she wouldn't have reached the highest levels of Judo like she did. I want to see her face opponents who can pose problems to her because I want to see how good she is.

I really hope its a recognized grappler like Davis or Baszler

Baszler and Davis haven't really even been mentioned so I doubt it will be either of those two. I think Ronda's next fight will be one of: Carmouche / Tate / McMann. Cyborg could get a look if she can get to 135 which I don't think she can.

I would be disappointed if Tate or McMann get the fight, I'd much rather see them fight each other. I also think Carmouche would be pretty much shark-bait, but she's less likely to look as bad as Kaufmann did. At the very least she's going to be coming forward when she gets thrown on the floor as opposed to Kaufmann who was going backwards. 

Baszler vs Rousey is a fight that interests me. It doesn't interest me because I think Baszler would win - I really don't - but it interests me because of what Baszler is. She's a pretty good ground fighter. I don't think she's "best of the best" material by any stretch (I mean, your coach is Josh Barnett, really?) but she's more dangerous than anyone Ronda has fought so far. I think there's a reasonable chance of it being a competitive fight (similar to how the Tate fight was competitive to a degree).

And just for added bonus fun, let's watch Baszler vs Sara McMann in submission grappling!

[jiminy]

We're talking about the same Sara McMann who's finished exactly one of her six pro opponents by TKO so far right? 
Despite his mediocre record Osawa has only been finished 3 times and he's definitely fought guys who hit a lot harder than McMann.

It's unlikely that she would actually be significantly more powerful than Osawa even if she does cut more weight. Where she likely would have a significant advantage would be wrestling technique. She could potentially take him down and grind out a decision - A Japanese fighter is likely to have a poorer wrestling base than most American fighters. I haven't actually seen any of his fights, so I can't really offer an opinion on what his game on the ground is like. He's got stacks of wins by decision so I doubt he's particularly dangerous.

Admittedly I was exaggerating regarding the hypothetical finish. But if he got cut, injured (broken nose, rib, etc) or caught just right, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that she could pummel him into a stoppage.

Sara has said she wants to be safe in her fights – not spend copious amounts of time in the guard of submission specialists like Baszler, who I'm aware already submitted her in a grappling tournament. Rather like GSP of late, she has been winning (against very good opposition – Evinger, Akano, Baszler) unspectacularly, but winning nonetheless. Also she wants to work on / gauge her stand up, which is still a work in progress. She obviously already has a lot of confidence in her wrestling.

I don't know why you think Osawa will have faced opponents that hit a lot harder than Sara. In most sports, gender influences strength and power to a much smaller degree than speed, reflex and explosiveness – which naturally tends to favour men over women much more, thus my inclination to think Osawa would be faster. In weightlifting for example, you never have to look far down the charts before seeing where the top women would place amongst the men in her weight class – usually between 10 and 20... And as we were discussing in the Tennis thread – it's never out of the ordinary to see women hitting the ball harder than some men.

McMann has got the potential to be just about as strong and powerful as a 135er can be, male or female. Granted a man - a top man - could be faster (I'm aware speed influences force - F=MA) and could get greater torque into his strikes, but with similar weight and similar technique, there's never going to be a great amount of disparity in that area.

[jiminy]

I concur with Sammy here. Sara Mcmann never looked outstanding in any of her fights. Infact I thought she lost her last fight against shayna Baszler until I saw the ref raising her hands (a daylight robbery).

Obviously it was a close fight, very close in fact – but as two of the judges scored it, I also felt McMann won all three rounds.

If you want to see robbery, check out Zoila Frausto's "win" over Jessica Aguilar in Bellator. JAG clearly dominated 2 of the 3 rounds.

For me, the main difference between Ronda and Sara so far has simply been Ronda's use of the media. Until we see McMann and Rousey square off in the cage together, no one knows for sure what will happen. Ronda already has a reputation for ducking opponents, including Sara. Just because Ronda has won her six pro fights "more impressively" doesn't automatically mean she can beat someone that has won most of her fights by decision. That's like saying just because Carlos Condit knocked out Dan Hardy, and GSP didn't, then Condit should have the edge on GSP...

[sheehan333]

"Obviously it was a close fight, very close in fact – but as two of the judges scored it, I also felt McMann won all three rounds.
If you want to see robbery, check out Zoila Frausto's "win" over Jessica Aguilar in Bellator. JAG clearly dominated 2 of the 3 rounds."


Hmm that one was also a controversial fight, same with Fuji vs Frausto. The only thing Frausto did was not to get submitted and take it to the judges (offcourse when U are facing Megumi Fuji most fighters will settle for that). Fuji is perhaps at the end of her prowess (she is 38) but still head and shoulder above most girls half her age. I think in her prime she would have been able to beat many males in her weight class, considering that the strength difference is not that much in the lighter classes and I believe she could have been competitive in mens division as well.

"I don't know why you think Osawa will have faced opponents that hit a lot harder than Sara. In most sports, gender influences strength and power to a much smaller degree than speed, reflex and explosiveness – which naturally tends to favour men over women much more, thus my inclination to think Osawa would be faster. In weightlifting for example, you never have to look far down the charts before seeing where the top women would place amongst the men in her weight class – usually between 10 and 20... And as we were discussing in the Tennis thread – it's never out of the ordinary to see women hitting the ball harder than some men."

Oswara is a pro fighter the fights he has with pro men are much harder then what mcmann has with the pro women. There may be some women who may be able to hit as hard as men but they are the top may be 0.0001 percentage.
Offcouse the weightlifting point you make is a valid one women have caught up fast and though there is yawning gap between say top 3 male and female the female will place at the bottom 3 in any international contest easily. Which is really surprising and I dont have an explanation for that. May be the nature of the sports is the reason.

I have not seen the tennis thread but just hitting the ball as hard (here also very few I can only think of the william sis who can) is not a guarantee to win the men's game is just played at a different level and women just cant compete. Recently I think Andy Murray said that no women player can compete against top 1000 men. Actually I had read an article after Serena and Venus was comprehensively blown away by a 203 ranked male when they challenged any male beyond 200, the article interviewed many top female players at that time and the females say forget beating the female pros may have to go down to amateur college levels just to be competitive. Serena herself said no other women player will have a chance against the males other then she and her sister.
In another forum I had posted an article where the Indian u16 boys team blew away US womens soccer team 4-0 (India FIFA ranking 160 and US women ranking 1). here most members opined that the U-16 boys were probably stronger and faster then the women, though I personally think the women must have more skills as an Indian u-16 team would unlikely to have much skills.

My point is mostly the men will be easily stronger then the women and unless he has a skill disadvantage (e.g. Ronda vs Osawara) he is  unlikely to lose. Which does not appear to be the case with mcmann

[Ronald_Frump]

I would be disappointed if Tate or McMann get the fight, I'd much rather see them fight each other. I also think Carmouche would be pretty much shark-bait, but she's less likely to look as bad as Kaufmann did. At the very least she's going to be coming forward when she gets thrown on the floor as opposed to Kaufmann who was going backwards. 

Baszler vs Rousey is a fight that interests me. It doesn't interest me because I think Baszler would win - I really don't - but it interests me because of what Baszler is. She's a pretty good ground fighter. I don't think she's "best of the best" material by any stretch (I mean, your coach is Josh Barnett, really?) but she's more dangerous than anyone Ronda has fought so far. I think there's a reasonable chance of it being a competitive fight (similar to how the Tate fight was competitive to a degree).

^ This.....
.....ttt

[sleepinbin]

I don't know why you think Osawa will have faced opponents that hit a lot harder than Sara.

because mcmann's standup isnt very good technically and she clearly doesnt exactly have fists of dynamite.

osawa (who is 18-10-2, not 5-5) has fought guys like dj taiki, yoshiro maeda and banuelos who, while hardly stellar competition, aren't pillow-fisted. and he didn't get finished by either.

so yeah, for all sara's talents - and the same applies to ronda - not only are they not going to suddenly start knocking people out all over the shop, they would be pro-actively really dumb to try to do so.

[jiminy]

She was throwin' bombs (as Joe Rogan would say) against Shayna Baszler. If one connected she could put a guy like Osawa to sleep.

[Ronald_Frump]

The problem with McMann, is that the spin doctors have to bull her up as a "striker", because she doesn't have a ground game. In addition to her having Olympic-level fitness, its the only way they can hype her as a credible challenger to Rousey.

Sarah's wrestling may aid her in grinding out wins by decision, but it doesn't equip her with a skill-set of finishing moves, like boxing or grappling.

[sammy_scuffles]

She was throwin' bombs (as Joe Rogan would say) against Shayna Baszler. If one connected she could put a guy like Osawa to sleep.

She tagged Baszler with plenty of clean shots in that fight and didn't really even hurt her. You're arguing that a fighter who hasn't been knocking out women is going to knock out a fighter who hasn't been knocked out by men more than a couple of times in 30 fights. Take off your femdom goggles for a few minutes and think about it.

The problem with McMann, is that the spin doctors have to bull her up as a "striker", because she doesn't have a ground game. In addition to her having Olympic-level fitness, its the only way they can hype her as a credible challenger to Rousey.

Sarah's wrestling may aid her in grinding out wins by decision, but it doesn't equip her with a skill-set of finishing moves, like boxing or grappling.

Mostly true. She does however have two submissions and a TKO in her 6 or so fights so far. It's not like she's completely lacking in tools to finish fights. Fact of the matter is that she's a rookie in the sport. Her stand up is decent enough, her ground game is developing, her wrestling is outstanding. In mens MMA a fighter with her skill set would be a promising talent taking fights in smaller leagues while learning the sport. In Womens MMA it's good enough that people are starting to consider her a contender already.

[jiminy]

Fair enough Sammy - I guess I'll agree with you that she most likely grinds out a decision over Osawa. 

Here's one for you then. Could Scott "Lionheart" Blevins stand up to Sara McMann's girly punches?