Womens' MMA mega-thread

[Ronald_Frump]

Look at the relaxation on her face. 

That's the ultimate femdom expression. I fear Ronda and desire her at the same time.........wow! What a woman!

[crushed4life]

Here's a blog about women's combat sports to follow, it's updated regularly:

http://wombatsports.wordpress.com/

[Ronald_Frump]

Thanks, C4L.......

for the link.

[jiminy]

Good stuff crushed - happy to see my girl Amanda Nunes aka "Lioness of the Ring" will be back in action at Invicta 4 vs. Sarah d'Alelio.

I predict a brutal KO from Nunes. 

Shame we never got to see Nunes vs Dudieva. That would've been a tear up.

KO specialist Veronica Rothenhausler will be making her pro debut against Katalina Malungahu (2-1) in a featherweight contest. Rothenhausler has made news this past year, as she racked up two 5 second KOs in a row in the ammateur ranks. Malunhahu is coming off her first professional loss at InvictaFC 3.

Awesome. Can't beat a girl who comes out swinging.

Invicta 4 is really taking shape.

[sammy_scuffles]

Ooh you boys have been getting out of hand while I've been away. Shame on you!

- not every top male judoka is as specialized as Ronda in newaza.......and *spoiler*       you're unlikely to win a UFC match with a throw
- not every judoka will want to be kicked and punched in the face
- where are the Olympic medal-winners, that these "top-guys" are beating with their TDD and sub-defence?

- You keep saying "specialized" and I keep having to point out that she's not a ground specialist.
- Of course not every judoka wants to get punched in the face.
- The point (and I think Sleepinbin got there first) is that they're not even getting to fight the top guys because they're not good enough. A good example would be the mediocre MMA record of Hidehiko Yoshida who has an olympic gold medal and multiple excellent world championship results. He's typically done well against poor fighters and lost to anyone you've ever heard of.

A fun link is this list which has a few Olympic Judo players who've fought in MMA. A surprising number of them have fought everybody's favourite can-crusher Fedor Emelianenko. 

Eddie Bravo (most famous for his win as a brown belt against Royler Gracie by triangle choke in the 2003 ADCC) has openly admitted that if she locks in an armbar, he can't escape.

Nobody escapes armbars after they're locked in. Far too late. I also guarantee that Eddie Bravo playing his 'A' game loses to Ronda exactly zero percent of the time. That's a coach and student pairing in terms of ground game, not a peer and peer relationship.

I personally think that if she could survive long enough to clinch, then Ronda has a very good chance of submitting ANYONE male or female, of the same weight. Just because she's made the rest of WMMA look like "cans" isn't her fault. They could feed her someone like Cody McKenzie or Bryan Caraway, then we'd be able to better judge her potential.

I don't think Ronda would have a "very good" chance against either of the guys named here. More against McKenzie who isn't so well rounded on the ground, and less against Caraway who despite being a complete tool is actually a good fighter. He's got 14 pro wins by submission for a reason. I rather doubt either would fear going to the ground with Ronda and I suspect McKenzie would even pull guard because his favourite pastime is guillotining people.

Just because she's made the rest of WMMA look like "cans" isn't her fault.

It's both unfortunate and fortunate. Unfortunate because it's hard to find a reasonable fight for her. Fortunate because the only reason she's a superstar right now is the fact that grappling is the weak link in Womens MMA right now. Simple fact is that being able to deal with a ground game of Ronda's quality is a requirement to make the big time in Mens MMA and it hasn't been in Womens because there's relatively few legit submission fighters. For now.

If you're telling me that testosterone and a set of balls trump elite Olympic-level newaza skills on the ground

You keep saying Olympic-level newaza like it's the final frontier of ground fighting. It's not. There really is a reason why Ronda is training with Cesar Gracie. Judo fighters take Brazilian Jiu jitsu to improve their ground game. Judo is stand up fighting with an adequate ground game. Yes I know Ronda is more proficient on the ground than your average Judo fighter but her level of skill would not be special in Mens MMA.

nope, im saying you are grossly understimating the skill level of hypothetical opponents.

This. 'Nuff said.

If she does it in convincing style, there'd be nowhere for her to go, competition-wise, other than a media-circus, inter-gender match. I mean look at the ex-champs. Tate was almost dismembered within minutes, Kaufman lasted seconds........Coenen, McMann and the rest of the "b" grade would follow suit.

It's worth remembering that despite the end being rather gruesome the Tate fight was competitive. Tate did fend off one armbar attempt and did take Ronda's back in this fight.

It's unfortunate that there's not a whole lot of realistic competition right now, but if they do things right then they only need to string it out a couple of years before there will be. There's good fighters coming up in Womens MMA and Ronda's the one that's going to give them the opportunity to make it a legit career. Along with Invicta. Ronda's also the target, which is fun. In the meantime I'd be throwing the solid journeyman (journeywoman?) type fighters at her. Shayna Baszler comes to mind as a good opponent. She's a tough brawler and she's pretty savvy on the ground.

[Ronald_Frump]

Ooh you boys have been getting out of hand while I've been away. Shame on you!

Instead of saying "you boys", why don't you just say "Stewie", because all the points you critique are mine. You haven't had a go at anybody else!........     

- You keep saying "specialized" and I keep having to point out that she's not a ground specialist.
- Of course not every judoka wants to get punched in the face.
- The point (and I think Sleepinbin got there first) is that they're not even getting to fight the top guys because they're not good enough. A good example would be the mediocre MMA record of Hidehiko Yoshida who has an olympic gold medal and multiple excellent world championship results. He's typically done well against poor fighters and lost to anyone you've ever heard of.

A fun link is this list which has a few Olympic Judo players who've fought in MMA. A surprising number of them have fought everybody's favourite can-crusher Fedor Emelianenko. 

Not a ground specialist? IIRC her mother overdeveloped newaza following a knee injury during her own career and by all accounts trained Ronda extensively in that aspect. I'm not saying there aren't other Judokas who are a match for Ronda, but if she isn't a ground specialist, I don't know who is.......and BEFORE you say it, why don't these ADCC women (Penny Thomas, Kyra Gracie et al)  prove it by coming to the UFC to take her title away. It's not like Ronda would trade punches with them. Let's see them defend the armbar and choke her out! As for Fedor, he's pretty good at that Russian judo thing they call sambo.

Nobody escapes armbars after they're locked in. Far too late. I also guarantee that Eddie Bravo playing his 'A' game loses to Ronda exactly zero percent of the time. That's a coach and student pairing in terms of ground game, not a peer and peer relationship.

Bravo!, good for him!   

I don't think Ronda would have a "very good" chance against either of the guys named here. More against McKenzie who isn't so well rounded on the ground, and less against Caraway who despite being a complete tool is actually a good fighter. He's got 14 pro wins by submission for a reason. I rather doubt either would fear going to the ground with Ronda and I suspect McKenzie would even pull guard because his favourite pastime is guillotining people.

Why? What have either of them done on a world wide scale for you to say they wouldn't fear Ronda on the ground? Have they been on an Olympic podium, or taken a medal at that level of competition?

Let me think for a nanosecond..... ....er, no.

It's both unfortunate and fortunate. Unfortunate because it's hard to find a reasonable fight for her. Fortunate because the only reason she's a superstar right now is the fact that grappling is the weak link in Womens MMA right now. Simple fact is that being able to deal with a ground game of Ronda's quality is a requirement to make the big time in Mens MMA and it hasn't been in Womens because there's relatively few legit submission fighters. For now.

Well they know where the money is, now its UFC.

You keep saying Olympic-level newaza like it's the final frontier of ground fighting. It's not. There really is a reason why Ronda is training with Cesar Gracie. Judo fighters take Brazilian Jiu jitsu to improve their ground game. Judo is stand up fighting with an adequate ground game. Yes I know Ronda is more proficient on the ground than your average Judo fighter but her level of skill would not be special in Mens MMA.

Understatement of the year.......   

nope, im saying you are grossly understimating the skill level of hypothetical opponents.

This. 'Nuff said.

You mean you actually agree with sleepinbin? 

It's worth remembering that despite the end being rather gruesome the Tate fight was competitive. Tate did fend off one armbar attempt and did take Ronda's back in this fight.

It's unfortunate that there's not a whole lot of realistic competition right now, but if they do things right then they only need to string it out a couple of years before there will be. There's good fighters coming up in Womens MMA and Ronda's the one that's going to give them the opportunity to make it a legit career. Along with Invicta. Ronda's also the target, which is fun. In the meantime I'd be throwing the solid journeyman (journeywoman?) type fighters at her. Shayna Baszler comes to mind as a good opponent. She's a tough brawler and she's pretty savvy on the ground.

We finally agree on something!   

[sammy_scuffles]

Instead of saying "you boys", why don't you just say "Stewie", because all the points you critique are mine. You haven't had a go at anybody else!........   

Coz you're the most fun to argue with obviously!

if she isn't a ground specialist, I don't know who is.......and BEFORE you say it, why don't these ADCC women (Penny Thomas, Kyra Gracie et al)  prove it by coming to the UFC to take her title away. It's not like Ronda would trade punches with them. Let's see them defend the armbar and choke her out!

Ronda's rise in MMA is almost certainly going to result in more high quality grapplers fighting in MMA.

I'm fairly sure that Penny is bigger than 135 and I'm definitely sure that Kyra is smaller than 135 so I don't think those particular fighters are going to ever end up fighting Ronda. Fact of the matter is, Ronda would be insane to actually try to take either of those girls down. In fact, based on pretty much every match of hers I've ever seen, Kyra would probably want to pull guard*. If you're Ronda and you're fighting Kyra Gracie you want her in your world, and your world is most definitely not in her guard. You've been practicing that boxing stuff for a reason and you're almost definitely better at it than she is. Why would you want to fight on the ground where she's spent her entire competition life?

Ronda would have to be an idiot to take an MMA fight with Kyra Gracie or Penny Thomas to the ground.

*Kyra pulling guard a lot is a theory I have about why her transition to MMA that's been mentioned for some time hasn't happened yet. MMA doesn't favour fighters who like to fight off their back and she definitely is one who prefers that. If she's really serious about MMA then she'd be wanting to re-jig her game to a more top-focused style.

Let's see them defend the armbar

Ronda's also vastly less likely to get into a position where an armbar is an option against these girls. To be honest I'd expect both of them to pull guard out of respect for the fact that a) Ronda has more standup experience and b) Ronda's throws end up with her in an attacking position more often than not, pulling guard negates that and makes her fight from a neutral position.

Oh and c) Let's see if you can pass our guard without giving your arm or neck up.

You can't armbar someone if you're in their guard and nothing we've seen gives the slightest indication that Ronda can pass the guard of the best BJJ fighters in the world. It's not likely to be high on her list of skills because even a "newaza specialist" as you're so fond of saying would never even enter their opponent's "guard" in a Judo match. Because you don't attack from a neutral position on the ground in Judo and because guard isn't even a thing in Judo.

Bonus: There's some Penny Thomas fight clips on this page. I haven't watched them because it's late, but they could be fun.

Why? What have either of them done on a world wide scale for you to say they wouldn't fear Ronda on the ground? Have they been on an Olympic podium, or taken a medal at that level of competition?

Submission grappling isn't an Olympic sport, nor is MMA. Your argument is invalid. To answer your question:

Bryan Caraway: 22 fights, 17 wins, 14 by submission.
Cody McKenzie: 16 fights, 12 wins, 13 by submission. (11 by Guillotine choke.)

Professional fighters. It's their job. They both clearly favor fighting on the ground and they've both had a lot of success doing it. You talk about these guys like they're scrubs. They're not.

As for Fedor, he's pretty good at that Russian judo thing they call sambo.

Fedor is (was?) a great fighter. But let's face it, he's not exactly known for consistently fighting the best in the world, especially recently.

[sleepinbin]

*cough* this is technically the f vs f subforum... *cough*

i agree with most of what sammy is saying here.

just to expand on the point of olympics > all else that stewie was trying to make: i put up a list once during a similar discussion on the other forum of a bunch of olympians in judo and wrestling who had failed to make an impact in mma. adapting to mma is different for each fighter - less successful olympians have become more successful mma fighters than some of their peers who medalled - success in one aspect of a sport is no guarantee of dominance when you take on people well trained in all the other aspects.

the relevance to ronda is that she has a HUGE "x factor" vs womens competition simply by being a more elite athlete than a lot of them are - its not difficult to see shes physically stronger and in a lot better shape than the majority of them, which gives her more power to pull them into her world. its the same advantage mcmann showed by simplying being strong and fit enough to haul herself out of baszler's sub attempts. in mens mma, because people get paid more and get more time to train and the rewards are greater, there are far more elite athletes involved (except maybe at heavyweight lol) than in wmma, especially when it comes to the ufc. the advantage an olympian can have just by being more athletic and stronger is neutralised to a large extent in the mens game.

[Ronald_Frump]

*cough* this is technically the f vs f subforum... *cough*

That's a bad cough, you got there......you should take something for that  ....I think we can agree that until Ronda is properly tested by someone of legit ability, it's all speculation.

Instead of saying "you boys", why don't you just say "Stewie", because all the points you critique are mine. You haven't had a go at anybody else!........   

Coz you're the most fun to argue with obviously!

.......yeah......well I'm keepin' a close eye on you, sister!

[Ronald_Frump]

Could Sara McMann be Tapped as Ronda Rousey's First UFC Title Defense?

The idea of a Ronda Rousey vs. Cris Cyborg marquee fight in the UFC is currently dead in the water.

Rousey has been signed away from Strikeforce and instituted as the first UFC women's bantamweight champion. She will fight in the Octagon, taking on all comers, but only at 135 pounds.

Cyborg, meanwhile, has struggled in the past to even make the 145-pound mark for the featherweight division she has ruled for several years. Her camp has even cited a doctor's recommendation that she not try to get down to 135.

Rousey has already defeated several top contenders in the division – Sarah Kaufman, Miesha Tate, Julia Budd, and Sara D'Aleilo – so who is on tap to be her first opponent in the Octagon?

Liz Carmouche and Marloes Coenen quickly come to mind, but so does Sara McMann, whose career has paralleled that of Rousey.

Rousey and McMann are both 6-0 in their professional careers and each has an Olympic medal on her resume – Rousey in Judo, McMann in freestyle wrestling.

Rousey has rocketed to stardom much quicker, however, so does a fight with the less known McMann, at least in Rousey's first action in the Octagon, make sense?

"From what I understand, there needs to be a proper build-up to a fight like that," McMann said on Monday night's edition of Inside MMA. "People don't really know me that well and they definitely know her, so it just doesn't make sense to have it without a strong following for me, too."

It's a fight that has been on a collision course since both women were competing at a world-class level in their respective sports, then made the decision to ply their wares in MMA.

"Pretty much since the first time I said I was gonna be in MMA, people were like 'I heard Ronda Rousey is gonna be in it, you guys should fight,'" explained McMann. "It's been probably like two years of hearing about Ronda.

"As far as the diehard fans, it's definitely been built up. (But) I think they need to get more of the fans that don't know every single person in MMA, too."

As McMann consistently says, her signing to the UFC is still "in the works" until the deal between Strikeforce and Showtime runs its course. It is the worst kept secret in the sports world, however, that Strikeforce's days are numbered and that most of the promotion's top talent will make the jump to the UFC when the final nail is hammered into the coffin.

It's never a done deal until it's a done deal, but it's a done deal.

"I'm not exactly supposed to talk about it," said McMann. "Everything is getting finished up with Strikeforce. But my manager says it's in the works, so we'll see."

It's not likely that McMann, who has never fought on Showtime like Rousey, will get the first shot at the UFC's inaugural women's champion, but if both continue winning, it's inevitable that their world's will collide in the cage.

ref. mmaweekly.com

[jiminy]

Get Sara in the UFC too. Have her fight Miesha Tate in a #1 contender's match, giving both girls plenty of exposure.  ...And then have the winner fight for the title.

Sara's a great fighter too. There are a number of guys she could wrestle-down and pound into submission as well.

In the mean-time, I'd like to see the winner of Davis/Baszler get a shot at Ronda. Stylistically, Alexis Davis with her BJJ background (never been submitted in MMA) could ask some questions of Ronda.

[Ronald_Frump]

Get Sara in the UFC too. Have her fight Miesha Tate in a #1 contender's match, giving both girls plenty of exposure.  ...And then have the winner fight for the title.

Sara's a great fighter too. There are a number of guys she could wrestle-down and pound into submission as well.

In the mean-time, I'd like to see the winner of Davis/Baszler get a shot at Ronda. Stylistically, Alexis Davis with her BJJ background (never been submitted in MMA) could ask some questions of Ronda.

^This.....
.....ttt

[jiminy]

What about some of the scrawny 135lbs Japanese men? Could a journeyman guy like Kenji Osawa (5-5, used to fight in WEC) easily defeat a powerhouse like Sara McMann (6-0, Olympic silver medalist)? I'm not sure that he could.



In Japan, they don't cut weight anywhere near as rigorously as they do in the U.S. 135lbs is pretty much Osawa's walk-around weight, whereas McMann is a tank, cutting from over 155lbs.

On fight night, she'd have at least 15+ pounds on him. It's not at all unreasonable to assume she is physically stronger than him. Also, with her wrestling background, she would undoubtedly be at least as technical.

His only advantage, most likely, would be speed. But IMO it wouldn't be significant enough and ultimately Sara's size and strength advantage would be insurmountable. She would simply bully him against the cage, before dragging (or even slamming) him to the floor where she'd proceed to pound him into submission, or unconsciousness.

[Ronald_Frump]

Good points jiminy.

That's the same scenario that I would see with Ronda/Caraway, albeit a different end result:

Ronda by armbar

In fact Caraway/McKenzie v Rousey confrontations are being discussed on the MMA forums, so maybe its not so far fetched after all?

As for Ronda's next victim opponent.......I really hope its a recognized grappler like Davis or Baszler, so when they get subbed inside a minute, I can come back here and say to all the haters:

"I told you so! lol!"   

[jiminy]

I want to see Ronda have to face adversity and see how she deals with it.

I want to see someone pull guard and see how Ronda handles being neutralised in such a situation, or if she can't score a take-down and is forced to fight on her feet.