Custom shoot gone wrong (or 'too right')

[AC]

Dear wrestling fans,

especially those who ask about real KO's, whether to be filmed on video for your enjoyment, or to experience first hand in sessions, etc.

I'd like to share what happened at our yesterday's custom shoot, as a warning to others.

Among the orders that were to be filmed, was a prolonged tight reverse headscissors scene, with the victim laying on a raised platform, so the reverse becomes in effect a standing reverse (instead of the regular kind where both opponents are laying down). Basically imagine a svdl scene with the victim laying across the sofa with his head sticking out, so the girl just steps over your head and clamps you neck down between her thighs. This variation allows to really get a hold of your neck since it's kinda extended and it makes it very natural for you to end up right up there as far and high as your neck can get in her upper thighs. It also allows her butt muscles to add to the squeeze. Along with rear sitting/mounted figure 4, I consider this hold variation most dangerous in all my experiences. I already had a close call with this standing hs hold during a shoot with Siberia last year where the 3-min challenge had to be stopped in 1st minute as I was immediately getting really dizzy and started loosing it.

Anyway, back to what has happened yesterday. Zelda, possibly the slimmest girl on my team, not a competitive athlete as most of my other girls, but a regular pretty model type of the girl next-door, got me in this hold.

Right at the beginning, just as the camera started to roll, I actually told her to not be afraid to cross her ankles right away to establish a good tight grip right from the get-go. This was the last words I remember. Just as she did, I remember the instant effect it had. Apparently, from watching the footage replay later, I managed to say just one more sentence (in just a very slightly concerned tone): "OK, shit, this is gonna be too tight, lessen the squeeze as this could KO me." A second or two later, I blacked out.

Not her, nor the camera guy busy filming and watching the scene on a small viewfinder, noticed it. Replaying it later on my monitor, my left hand made a fist, and my legs moved up and down a bit couple times, and my eyes rolled up. For the next 32 seconds (which btw seems like a total eternity watching it replayed on my PC and it makes me very sick to watch), I was held in this tight KO-inducing squeeze, as Zelda got into her assassin role and kept squeezing me and saying the lines, not minding me at all. Finally, around the 32sec mark after I went AND was kept under, I made a gurgling sound, and foamy blood spat out of my mouth, all the way to her upper butt. Zelda finally loosened her grip at this moment as she noticed things weren't right, quickly let go of the hold completely, as the camera guy yelled "OH, SHIT, oh Jesus!".

Camera went on the ground, so I only have the sound and their account as to what followed.

I experienced a massive nose bleed. My whole mouth was full of foamy blood as well. I could have easily choked in my own blood. My depressed tongue could have blocked my throat further. The camera guy immediately lifted my legs up, and some panicky and extremely frightening moments ensued, as my noose bled massively, and they didn't know what to do or whether I was actually dying there while they watched in horror. My skin color turned really pale.
It took about 25-30 seconds before I was starting to come back, and another 10-15 before I managed to respond "I'm okay" to their yelling "Are you okay, are you okay?!". The whole experience was absolutely terrifying to both of 'em. They both had a basic CPR training in the past, and thought I was having seizure and with the blood coming from my nose and mouth, they thought the worst.

Me, coming from the KO back to life, I remember slowly starting to see the sky (we shot this outside in public), and for a long while not realizing where I was, and what was happening. I started to feel the blood in my mouth, and started to try to spit it out to breathe better. I remember the cold ground (they pulled me down to lift my legs up), and slowly came back to my senses. I continued to lay down for a minute, with 'em catching the blood with the towel, asking whether to call an ambulance. It all happened so quick, neither of us was ready for it. I don't shoot KO's, I don't do KO's, I'm not interested in KO's. I love myself too much to risk it. Shooting for my stores and having personal and session experiences before that, I've been caught in long tight scissor holds applied from all angles, from all types of girls.. long/short/slim/buff. I always go for realism, ie., during the shoots, I really do suffer, I get dizzy, teary eyes, but always stay away from the actual KO's. Last thing I had in mind was for this shoot to end up as it did.

Being kept squeezed 5, 10, 15 seconds after the knockout starts, is a dangerous play with your health. Being squeezed in KO for more than 30 seconds as I did yesterday, I consider myself to be lucky to be telling you this experience here today. If I didn't finally spit the first blood out, the camera guy said he would continue focusing on shooting, and Zelda would kept on squeezing. Still thinking now how this all could ended up yesterday makes me sick to my stomach.

Guys seeking real KO's, please be careful out there! You only live once, and while things can go well hundred times in a row, it only takes a one shot.

[martin]

She is just a "model type of the girl next-door", had no idea reverse scissors was so powerful.

[Ronald_Frump]

Unfortunately, real KOs are the only thing many of us fans are interested in. There is so much of a saturation with regards to lame, contrived action, that a bit of realism is highly prized. That's why some producers do KO compilations (albeit, mostly fake).

I still think it is a relatively safe thing, provided the camera guy and the girl are expecting it. Look at some of the more "real" KO producers out there - M!stress Smo0thering and Dr0wning, Pan!c L0vers, C1ub Q etc. - nobody's died AFAIK, but because the KOs are expected, there is an awareness amongst the team that makes it a relatively safe experience. It's probably statistically more dangerous to drive a car in rush hour.

Lesson learned. Glad you're okay. Probably safer to film indoors, TBH.

Are you planning on releasing the "acceptable" footage?   

[zell04]

its good you are ok. i never try or thinking to try. be smart be safe.

[AC]

She is just a "model type of the girl next-door", had no idea reverse scissors was so powerful.

A hold like this, esp. this an almost standing reverse variation of it... a child could kill you. She wasn't even squeezing much, she said maybe 20-30%.
I don't shoot mixed competitive with Zelda, she's too slim and lightweight for it, I would beat her. But I noticed right away on our 1st pins&scissors clips we shot last year with her that she has one mean scissors. Most probably due to her slimmer thighs that cut right into your neck, pilates training where she's able to constrict her inner thigh muscles well, and anatomy of her hips, as I end up tightly wedged up high in her regular reverse headscissors for example. She can submit me right away with minimal effort in almost any scissor.

Are you planning on releasing the "acceptable" footage?   

Most definitely no. I can't even make myself look at it anymore, it is disturbing. Last thing I'd want is to have this footage of me on the internet.

..i never try or thinking to try..

Good thinking.

[Btee]

wow glad you're ok, so is there any doctors that can explain why blood appeared from the mouth???

Will definitely buy this clip if you change your mind and release it, sorry couldn't resist

[Ronald_Frump]

wow glad you're ok, so is there any doctors that can explain why blood appeared from the mouth???

I'm not a doctor, but I've worked in anaesthetics and surgery. I would guess a posterior nosebleed, where bleeding originates from branches of arteries that supply blood to the space inside your nose between the roof of your mouth and your brain (nasal cavity) could result from hypertension (high blood pressure), due to the neck scissors. This blood then runs down the back of your throat via the sinuses, and depending on the mix of air from your trachea, froths out of your mouth.

If there were such things as real, female scissoring assassins, this is how you would die 

Will definitely buy this clip if you change your mind and release it, sorry couldn't resist

So would I. In fact this is an opportunity for a real money-earner. Can't you just edit out the latter gory bits? If it makes you feel better, I fainted once in a store and was fitting and twitching on the floor. Afterwards, they showed me the CCTV footage and I agree, it's mildly disturbing. However, if I'd been scissored by a hot chick, I would be proud and want to share it with the world! 

[uboat]

Sorry pals, I read this and for sure you're a lucky man AC! The real KO's is the worst you can expect in a fight. There's no "safe" choke this is falacious, and for sure you can have a severe brain damage, stroke, or log term damage. And yes your partner, an irresponsible if he/she know something about martial arts will face the justice, perhaps prison and worst be the responsible for this and remember that for the rest of his life. No matter if you sign a piece of paper in most countries nowadays all involved could be responsible for the law.

In doubt check some cases:
http://espn.go.com/mma/story/_/id/8660482/sean-entin-life-choke
A recent case in Brazil:

  Strangulation Play of friends almost kills 19-year old in Santos
   For a long while, a joke in bad taste does not kill a law student 19 years in Santos. Victim of a rear naked choke, strangulation of stroke used in martial arts, William Doretto Valley Gonzalez suffered hypoxia (lack of oxygen to the brain), which left him in a wheelchair to recover the conditions for return to be independent.
   Soon after immobilization, William had three seizures and could have suffered a cardiac arrest. Respiratory failure affected the cerebellum, area responsible for balance and body posture. Today, the injury still prevents him to stand, though I can move the lower and upper limbs.
   At home, in Embaré, the boy's family gave an interview to The Tribune to warn young people and parents about a seemingly harmless prank, but it can cause serious damage.
   The case occurred in the early morning of December 26, in the garden next to the station 2, on the edge. The victim was about 20 young people, mostly in their 20s, who combined "play fight". The idea was that the kicks and punches were given in the shade, that is, without reaching the opponent. No wait, however, William, who is taekwondo practitioner, was struck violently by a boy known him.
Despite the young signal, indicating that had his guard down, the other continued strangulation. Quickly, the group realized that the victim was in trouble and stopped playing.
   Convulsion no strength in the legs and squatting, the student tried to crawl and fainted. Frightened, the group did not want to wait for the arrival of the rescue and took the victim to the hospital. On the way to the Santa Casa de Santos, he suffered the first seizure.
When was admitted to hospital, William had 240 beats per minute. For an adult, a normal heart rate varies between 60 and 100 beats per minute. If friends had not provided quick relief, the outcome could have been worse, says the mother, Karina Doretto Valley Gonzalez.
The young man has suffered another seizure, and the medical team decided to sedate him and intubate him. No place in the Intensive Care Unit (ICU) and the unavailable tomography apparatus, the family moved to Charity Portuguese, where he had the third seizure and was put in an induced coma. It was two days in the ICU and ten in the room, before discharge.
Recovery
In a new phase of treatment, William will undergo physiotherapy sessions at home, in health insurance and Rehabilitation Center Lucy Montoro, in Santos.
Although it is a reversible event, no later than when the child will have a normal life again.

William wants to "walk and run"

Attendant working in a school, will be out indefinitely. However, the law school, the idea is to go back to school.
The father, Roberto Vieira Gonzalez, believes that socialization is important in the child's recovery.
"I do not know how it will be an adjustment, but I'm willing to take it to college and, where appropriate, make notes in notebook during class. It is with impaired mobility, but their intelligence is preserved, "he says.
Among the plans for when fully regain their health and be able to practice a physical activity, Guilherme already know what will. "I want to walk and run on the beach."
Serenity
Parents of William say they have no hatred or anger aggressor, but do not want to establish any kind of contact. The boy tried to apologize to the family. If she had taken the case to the police, he could account for personal injury.
"It does not matter with me now. Just think of the recovery of my son. Do not take William's responsibility to be in place when this happened barbarity; it is not to blame only that person, "he says.
Lesson
Roberto says that is the lesson that these games can not be practiced.
"Young people need to have that awareness. There are specific places for this kind of fight, and it needs to be accompanied by people who have more knowledge to avoid problems, "warns.
Game can lead to permanent damage

Stop breathing, in order to induce temporarily fainting, dizziness or euphoria. The joke, very dangerous, known as fainting game, can cause loss of consciousness. The game is made with strangulation or pressure in the chest. The effect? The serious risk of jeopardizing the distribution of oxygen in the brain.
The head of the neurosurgical team, Ana Costa Hospital and member of the Brazilian Society of Neurosurgery, Antonio Carlos Santos Grela, explains that the brain has a very high demand for blood and oxygen.
"You can understand that for a relationship between cerebral blood flow per gram of brain. The complex brain activity considerations and calculations require a flow of 65 ml per gram of brain tissue per minute. Below 30 ml per gram of brain tissue per minute, there is a reduction of consciousness. "
Brain Injury
According to the expert, values ​​below 20 ml per gram of brain tissue per minute lead to unconsciousness; and when the volume is below 5 ml per gram of brain tissue per minute neuron death occurs.
The result is a brain neuron lesion in different degrees of transient recovery potential lesion until final lesions that lead to sequelae, or cognitive and motor and death depending on the duration of the event.
According to the neurosurgeon, brain damage, when installed, brings the sequel to a varying degree, as lesion extent and duration of the withdrawal movement and, consequently, of oxygen deprivation.
"Every patient who undergoes a hypoxia should receive specialized care to the potential deterioration and death. Motor sequelae occur in extreme cases; while cognitive sequelae may occur in varying degrees, requiring sometimes quite elaborate neuropsychological evaluations to determine. "
http://www.atribuna.com.br/cidades/brincadeira-de-amigos-quase-mata-jovem-de-19-anos-em-santos-1.426022

[AC]

Yes I consider myself very lucky indeed, as with being held in KO for 32 seconds is where the brain seizure/damage territory very much starts. Thanks for the articles, I'm glad I didn't end up as 'em.
Thanks also to Stewie for good explanation why there was so much blood involved. And no, it's never going to be released, can't afford to have such footage on the internet.

[voayer]

Ok, now i have a question to AC. Or to the other experts who knows something more about this choking thing.
I am really not into this scissors and choking. I joined this community just because you guys are great community. Much better than we (boxing and beatdown lovers) are. You take care for each other, give each other karmas....etc. Guess most of the guys from my fetish would never spend any $ for movies....damn, most of them are even to lazy to press "thanks" button.
So...i couldn't beat you, i just join you. Lol! Ok this last think was a joke

Now...here's the thing. On this forum i already mentioned, that i start visiting munches and hanging around BDSM ppl. Met the girl, who is interested to be choked unconscious. And we did this....kinda.
I sat behind her, using one of those mma grips...something like this:
[attach=1]
But of course we didn't go "to the end". I loosened my grip after 5 seconds..after first coughing. Before i ordered her to raise her hand because i wanted to have backup information what's happening with her. If hand falls down, then she's pretty much out, right?
Just measure of precaution, although it wasnt necessary...for 5 seconds.

But i noticed she was kinda dissapointed because i chickened out. You have no idea how these subby girls can be aggessive if they don't get what they want.

Next time i want to do this right. To send her to "dreamland". Like she always dreamed about. But i want to play safe. Don't want to hurt her.
Is there anything, that i should be extra careful about? Watching these youtube videos, where teenagers playing with this...can't be that dangerous. But on the other hand ...reading above published article from AC, this choking and squeezing thing is pretty much serious business. I'm confuzed.
Howmuch is average time to send somebody to sleep? In know, it depends...im just asking for average time.

These questions are meant for the ppl who actually did this. Active and passive way. Squeezing and being squeezed.
Not for those, who just watch the movies, btw.

[uboat]

Ok voayer, I'm really sorry to say that..."There's no safe way to do a choke!". Ok guys I know I should sounds annoying in some of my response, but as I always try to figure out and learn more about wrestling and other stuff (most involving girls, I can't resist). I read a lot talk with martial arts professionals, and I was a judo fighter in the past too...and a choke is extremely dangerous, don't matter how careful you could be. You can damage the pipe if you go for the throat, press and hold the carotida doesn't mean it'll "automatically" goes back, lack of oxygen in human brain is a life risk PERIOD. So my advice: DON'T DO IT! If someone tell you there's a "safe way", he/she is lying.
Best regards, and keep safe,
Uboat

[Ronald_Frump]

I wouldn't try to do that to a girl. Poor technique could damage the trachea.

These questions are meant for the ppl who actually did this. Active and passive way. Squeezing and being squeezed.
Not for those, who just watch the movies, btw.

I don't qualify to comment according to your criteria, but since I worked in operating theatres, including vascular surgery (carotid arteries), neurology, ENT (tracheotomy) and I assisted in awake intubations, I will.

[voayer]

Frankly, i'm really not quite delight doing this. It's really nothing sadistic in me. Besides that, i am scared a bit. And i would like to avoid this shit. Just...she'll probably find her self somebody else. Maybe somebody, who knows even less than me about this.
From what i heard, is one of the problems trachea...or pipe. From what i saw, trachea injuries can be avoided if you put .... i don't know how to say this in english...this angle where upper arm and forearm are connected (on the other side of the elbow) on trachea area. So...pressure supose to be on both sides of the neck. But i heard there is some nerve, who can couse paralysis, if somebody press on it hard enough. Anybody knows more about it?

[Ronald_Frump]

Most neck-related nerve problems result from spine-related trauma.

Look, we can analyze this for evermore.... people get rear-naked choked in BJJ/grappling events all the time. People do it on youtube. They don't die, or end up in a wheelchair.

If you must do it, leave a gap to protect the trachea, apply pressure to the sides of the neck and have somebody else present, to alert you to the first signs of her losing consciousness. Then release the hold, lay her down and elevate her feet to promote blood-flow back to the brain.

[uboat]

   Ok voayer, it's a technical question I suppose. Well there's basically 2 types of strangulation:
i)the most dangerous is to cut the air supply, this one could damage the trachea. Hard to apply and extremely dangerous, the person will convulse for the lack of air, this is a normal body response.
ii)cut the blood flow to the brain, this one has a low death rate, but is as dangerous as I explained above.
   In the past, when I was in judo, they teached how to apply the strangulations only for the highest belts. I remember someone told me once: "Strangle only if you want to eat! This is applied to kill animals, forbidden in the old judo championships (only by mistake or judges fault)"
   I have a friend who suffer a severe damage to his spine, due to a MMA rear naked applied to his back, months to recover and he was tetraplegic in the first months. Now he uses a cane and works, but he's not 70% ok.
   My advice again: Don't do it, except if your life is at risk!
   Remember: Wrestling, BDSM, etc. is for fun not fot hurt!
BTW english is not my mother language, forgive me for my misspellings.